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The Ribbon and Heat Problems
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Author Topic: The Ribbon and Heat Problems  (Read 1742 times)
Mark Caputo
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« on: December 21, 2007, 07:50:19 PM »

Please keep in mind I am not a scientist nor do pretend to even understand the formulas many people post on this forum.  But I think I understand some of the problems I was reading about.

With all the issues of heat generated onto the CNT because of moving parts on the elevator and the difficulty in eliminating or reducing the heat, why not double the length of the ribbon and make a conveyor belt out of it.  Attach the elevator to the ribbon.  Put the rollers at the top and bottom and make them any size you want.  Move the rollers on the bottom (earth) and keep them cool there.  I don't think cooling will be an issue in space.  If weight of cargo is an issue, install boosters on the platform to "lighten" the load.  The same method may be used to install the final sized ribbon with the use of a "fish line". Very large electric motors may be used without adding to the weight factors of the platform.  I would suggest eliminating as much weight from the elevator platform as possible as this would in effect reduce the cost and stress on the CNT ribbon.

Mark 

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A_M_Swallow
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« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2007, 09:22:21 PM »

We would love to make the ribbon a simple loop, this would solve a lot of problems, unfortunately the ribbon would break.

As for boosters the fuel for them would cause a very large increase in the climbers weight.  The rockets used by NASA are practically all fuel tank.  The large rockets are needed to move a capsule the size of a small truck 100 miles, on the flat road vehicles use a much smaller fuel tank.  Although a lot of the fuel is used to accelerate the capsule to 27,000 km/h.

The strength of materials is called the tensile strength and is measured in pascals.  Steel has a tensile strength of 2,000,000,000 Pa (or 2000 MPa) and carbon nanotubes 62,000,000,000 (or 62000 MPa).  The space elevator cable hangs down so a measure called the breaking length is important.  This is the length of material (in km) that can support its own weight.  The breaking length of steel is 25.93 km and the breaking length of carbon nanotubes is 4,716 km.  Pity the space elevator will be 100,000 km high.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_strength

Using a doubled back cable that rocks up and down to lift the cabin instead of an on board motor has been proposed, avoiding the heat problems, but this is just a dream until a super strength material has been invented.
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Mark Caputo
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« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2007, 05:23:44 PM »

Makes sense.  And again I don't know anything about these CNT and I'm sure someone has suggested it already but what about weaving them together.  I know you greatly increase the strength in wiring by weaving it together instead of running straight strands.  Is that even a possiblity with CNT?
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neil
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« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2007, 04:11:16 AM »

Weaving does have some advantages, but it does not increase the strength per kilogram. Long runs between high tension towers are typically solid copper wire. Search for Hoytether which is something like a fishnet.
The rocking back and forth method does allow using tapered ribbon, and suitable CNT = carbon nano tubes may be available soon. There may, however, be some surprises when we try to do the rocking method very large scale. There seems to be some disagreement about the behavior of stretch transients, and the degree of dampening = energy loss which will occur.
Ribbon heating may not be a problem as CNT can tolerate very high temperatures. Hot ribbon will cool efficiently by radiation. Epoxy or other binders will deteriorate at a few hundred degrees c. The laser beam used to power the climber may accidentally heat the ribbon and cause heat damage to the binders.   Neil
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Mark Caputo
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« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2007, 02:44:26 AM »

Okay, so on the same topic I have a question.  With the tapered CNT scenario, is this like having multiple CNTs at the top end with multiple anchor points or anchorage platforms in space each with their own counterweights like a spiders web all coming down to a single earth based platform with various connection points at various distances to help support the weight of the ribbon?  (illustrated below).

      SP  SP SP  SP  SP
       \   \  |  /   /
        \   \ | /   /
         \   \|/   /
          \   |   /
           \  |  /
            \ | /
             \|/
              |
             EP

SP = Space Based Platform
EP = Earth Based Platform

It is a rather crude illustration but it shows what I understand to be a tapered tether.  Of course it doesn't illustrate the 3 dimensional characateristics I would assume it would have.  Is this correct or is it a single ribbon that is just larger and heavier on the top and gets thinner and lighter on the way down?

Thanks
Mark Caputo
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modavis
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« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2007, 11:32:43 PM »

... or is it a single ribbon that is just larger and heavier on the top and gets thinner and lighter on the way down?

That's it -- actually, thickest near GEO, and tapering both up and down from there. The taper reflects the fact that each segment has to support the weight (going down) or centrifugal pull (going up/outward) of all the ribbon beyond that segment, as well as the smaller forces imposed by climbers and their movements.
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heightgrowthshoes.com
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« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2008, 11:10:40 AM »

Please keep in mind I am not a scientist nor do pretend to even understand the formulas many people post on this forum.  But I think I understand some of the problems I was reading about.

With all the issues of heat generated onto the CNT because of moving parts on the elevator and the difficulty in eliminating or reducing the heat, why not double the length of the ribbon and make a conveyor belt out of it.  Attach the elevator to the ribbon.  Put the rollers at the top and bottom and make them any size you want.  Move the rollers on the bottom (earth) and keep them cool there.  I don't think cooling will be an issue in space.  If weight of cargo is an issue, install boosters on the platform to "lighten" the load.  The same method may be used to install the final sized ribbon with the use of a "fish line". Very large electric motors may be used without adding to the weight factors of the platform.  I would suggest eliminating as much weight from the elevator platform as possible as this would in effect reduce the cost and stress on the CNT ribbon.
great day to you all
Mark 


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A_M_Swallow
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« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2008, 08:31:46 AM »


With all the issues of heat generated onto the CNT because of moving parts on the elevator and the difficulty in eliminating or reducing the heat, why not double the length of the ribbon and make a conveyor belt out of it.  Attach the elevator to the ribbon.  Put the rollers at the top and bottom and make them any size you want.  Move the rollers on the bottom (earth) and keep them cool there.  I don't think cooling will be an issue in space.  If weight of cargo is an issue, install boosters on the platform to "lighten" the load.  The same method may be used to install the final sized ribbon with the use of a "fish line". Very large electric motors may be used without adding to the weight factors of the platform.  I would suggest eliminating as much weight from the elevator platform as possible as this would in effect reduce the cost and stress on the CNT ribbon.
great day to you all
Mark 

The conveyor belt design of space elevator does solve many problems, unfortunately the ribbon needs to be made from an even stronger material.  One so strong that the ribbon can be made without tapering.  It is unlikely that even CNT will be that extra strong.
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Andrew Swallow
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